New book from NYT bestselling author Lewis Howes is now available!

New book from NYT bestselling author Lewis Howes is now available!


Matthew Hussey

Matthew Hussey's Expert Tips for Attracting and Maintaining True Love


On today’s episode of The School of Greatness, I talk about the key to lasting relationships with an international guru of the dating and relationship-coaching scene: Matthew Hussey. Hussey emphasizes the importance of active listening, empathetic understanding, and clear expression of feelings. He highlights that genuine communication forms the foundation of strong partnerships and helps resolve conflicts constructively.


Matthew Hussey is a speaker, New York Times Bestselling author, columnist for Cosmopolitan Magazine, and dating expert on ABC’s digital series What To Text Him Back.  His corporate clients include Hugo Boss, The Perfume Shop, Virgin Gyms, Procter & Gamble, Bare Escentuals, U.S. legal giant Weil Gotshal & Manges, and global management consultants Accenture. 50,000 women have attended his live events and he has reached over 10 million online.

“Don’t invest in someone based on how much you like them. Invest based on how much they like you.” @MatthewHussey  

And now let’s jump into episode 1490 of The School of Greatness!

“A lot of people want to be in a relationship where they’re always the flower and never the gardener.” @MatthewHussey  

Some Questions I Ask:

  • Do people even want to have a committed, long term relationship? 
  • Is a great relationship when you stop thinking about your needs and not expecting anything in return? 
  • How do we step outside of the emotional feelings in a relationship? 
  • When do you know you’re ready for a committed, intimate relationship? 
  • What are the three things you need to have to sustain a relationship? 

In this episode, you will learn:

  • About “activation energy” and why things like Tinder make it low 
  • Why space is important in order to not react emotionally
  • About the “castle” metaphor and why you need to build together 
  • Why the “trash cans” define your relationship more than the highlights 
  • The four stages of all relationships 
  • The first step you can do to get out of the weeds of singlehood
  • Plus much more…
Connect with
Matthew Hussey

Transcript of this Episode

Lewis: This is episode number 811 with New York Times best-selling author Matthew Hussey. Welcome to the school of greatness my name is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today now let the class begin.

Lao Tzu said “Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.”

I am so excited about this interview I’ve got my good friend Matthew Hussey on. The last time we did an interview was years ago and it went viral online. The YouTube video, the audio everything that this person does just seem to take off because he resonates so deeply with so many individuals.

Now, if you don’t know who Matthew Hussey is he is a masterful speaker and New York Times best-selling author, columnist for cosmopolitan magazine, dating expert on ABC’s digital series what to [?]. He’s been on the today’s show probably a hundred something times all over the press. He started out in London as a one on one coach for men often focusing on confidence issue that impacted relationships, as a result he created ‘get the guy’ which focus exclusively on relationships for women helping them get the man of their dreams.

The brand established Hussey as one of the leading experts in the field of human attraction in the U.K and the U.S and now he runs programs across the world helping thousands of men reach their potential and 50 thousand women have attended his live events, and he has reach over 10 million people online. His social media is insanity it’s amazing the wisdom he gives on his videos, messaging, everything he do helps so many women around the world understand man better and really understand relationships better. 

I follow Matthew personally I’ve been following him for years from the man’s perspective on relationships as well trying to understand relationships in general. So, if you want to learn more how to become masterful in any type of relationship whether it’s intimate or love relationship he’s the guy, he studied this and research this more than anyone I know and he dives into the human psychology any relationship dynamics in such a beautiful and powerful way.

In this interview we talked about the power of having a partner and what that can do for your life when you have that true partner. The key to standing out in a noisy world of dating. So much going on how do you stand out and really become more magnetic. What it takes for both partners to be in a great relationship and how to grow and thrive together. The importance of investing in story of a relationship. There’s an importance behind the story you tell yourself in the relationship and why the trash cans at Disneyworld moved Matthew and the parallel they have to all relationships.

I am so excited make sure to share this with your friends, tag every female that you know because this is going to blow them away and help them heal and help them find more peace and really help them thrive in relationships more than you know. Make sure to tag every girl friend right now It will be a game changer for them whether they’re in a relationship, they’re dating someone, they’re married, they’re single this will help their life. So send them to this right now just copy the link and be a hero and a champion in someone’s life by sending this to them.

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All right guys the power of finding and thriving with lasting love. I’m excited about this one with the one and only my good friend Matthew Hussey.

Welcome everyone back to the school of greatness podcast we’ve got one of my dear friends Matthew Hussey in the house. 

Matthew: Back again.

Lewis: Last time you were on was 4 years ago.

Matthew: We thought it was 3 and I went back and looked at it.

Lewis: Crazy.

Matthew: 4 years.

Lewis: And that episode blew up and continues to get a lot of attraction. You have a massive audience on social media, YouTube. You have thousands of women that come to your lab and [?] every year. You serve so many women who are struggling all the time in finding the right match for them a loving partnership and a man or a partner they want to be with. And you’ve been helping women I think for almost a decade now is that right?

Matthew: It’s been over a decade now. This year is the 10 year anniversary of our retreat and the retreat started 3 or 4 years into me doing what I do. I was 18 when I started but I was working with men then not women and that was 21 when I really started to make that transition with women and I’ve been doing that ever since.

Lewis: That’s amazing man. It’s interesting there’s a lot that happened in the last 4 years because Tinder really started exploding 4 years ago.

Matthew: And perhaps lost it’s to [?] maybe.

Lewis: And then all the other apps came out to make accessible to swipe left and swipe right and Instagram a dating app essentially in itself. It seems like there’s so many good options yet not 1 great option for anyone.

Matthew: When you say they’ve all become dating apps it makes me feel we’ve come full circle because wasn’t that the original point of Facebook?

Lewis: On College.

Matthew: That to me is, it kind of started there and now just many different ways to do it obviously social media is use for many different things. But I think anything that makes it easier the ability to meet people. I feel like the activation energy of meeting people when people have to go out to a bar you know dress up and look the part and see someone across the bar and thing about what they’re gonna say. The activation energy was really high and people I think whether they admit it or not love the idea of the activation energy being really low, that I can slide into someone’s DM on Instagram and hit someone up with very minimal effort.

Lewis: Right.

Matthew: I’ve also minimize the potential rejection from that.

Lewis: It doesn’t hurt.

Matthew: It’s not real time rejection of I approach you and you are now being cold to me or you don’t want to speak to me or you tell me you have a boyfriend/girlfriend.

Lewis: How many times you go up to a girl and they say “I’ve got a boyfriend.”

Matthew: So, we’ve lowered the activation energy for meeting each other and that thing could save a lot of people, but it’s also done something.

Lewis: It’s hurt a lot of us.

Matthew: It’s interrupted a little bit maybe a lot. You know I thought about this recently how if let’s say before any of this there was a man who meets a woman that they are out and meet social environment. He goes home and he has to call her right? Now, that takes guts you know already I’m kind of investing before I’ve even made a phone call I’m investing because I’m thinking what I am going to say. So, now already beginning to value this person because I am having to try it something.

Lewis: Because I met her, I got her number and I’m thinking about the next step.

Matthew: And even by meeting someone out and exchanging numbers there’s a story already happening over there.

Lewis: And there’s a potential for someone.

Matthew: Yeah and I thought I was attracted to her and I went over there and did the thing and it worked. This is a story that’s happening and you go home and you think about it and make the call.

Lewis: You tell your friends about it.

Matthew: Now, you go on a date and have a great time and after the date you go home and you might have to wait 3 days or 4 days to date this person. Who knows 3 or 4 days you may not consider it work but you are working for that person. There’s a chasing that’s going on in your mind there’s an investment that’s going on in your mind, an imagination the narrative that’s happening. And that is all part of that kind of natural [?] that pulls us into the next stage of the interaction.

Now, compare that with someone you know hit someone up, there’s like no activation energy to that really. We got a match and read it and loves you know. 

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: Like get out together. He comes back or she comes back from a date to 5 more matches before he’s even got even have time to process whether he had the time, there’s already more options coming at someone or at the very least you can go home and explore more options from your bed that night after a date. So, it’s interrupting the circuitry.

Lewis: Which will give you more dopamine.

Matthew: You’re getting attracted to the novelty again right now not the depth of where this thing might lead. Now, I’m not saying that it’s all insurmountable, this is not me painting a gloom and doom about the current dating. I do think there is a toxicity there is a toxic element to modern day dating, but I’m not [?] about that, I just think that the impact we make on people in the time we have with them that comes much more important because you can no longer rely on being the only person to they’re talking to that week or that month.

Lewis: That might have 5 dates that week.

Matthew: And probably today for a lot of people.

Lewis: And probably a hundred messages.

Matthew: It’s less likely they’re on 5 dates this week but they’re talking to 10 people this week. 

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: A lot of people go on fewer dates than everyone thinks, people have less sex than everyone thinks but what’s happening is that there is a lot of non-sense conversations.

Lewis: Yeah and no one is actually even talking on the phone are they?

Matthew: Not unless they wanted to be different and that’s where it really begins to shift is you have to be the person who is different.

Lewis: That takes the risk and standout.

Matthew: That’s the current question is in a world with more noise than ever, and for all of your people out there watching right now everything I think we talk about we can apply to business too. It’s the same thing going on everywhere right now. There is so much noise everyone is talking in business too. If you’re personal trainer you are competing with five personal trainers on your gym floor and maybe down the street at the other local gym. And those were the people that were your competition.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: Now anyone with an Instagram and a 6 pack is your competition, who is trying to sell their digital program and try to convince people that don’t need to go to their local trainer. So, the whole has opened up and what that means is that you can no longer rely on just the scarcity of people to be special.

Lewis: 3-5 miles.

Matthew: So we now can no longer rely on that we have to have a voice that defines us, we have to have a voice that makes us different. You now have to be the voice that is different. People have so many hours in a week this is a long form podcast. Why are people gonna sit and listen to my hour instead of these 6 or other 10 top podcasters because we can’t listen to them all. So now your voice matters and in dating our voice matter because it is not enough anymore to just be a viable dating option for someone.

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Lewis: Would the people really want to stand out to have a committed long term relationship or they more just? They say they want commitment but their actions don’t backed it.

Matthew: That’s a tricky one most people I believe think they are evolve enough for a relationship.

Lewis: When do you know?

Matthew: For a long time by the way. There are times in my life where I really thought I was a great guy, it wasn’t ever I was a nasty person I was never a mean person but I wasn’t the great partner I thought I was. There are times in my life where I thought I just be a great partner to someone and I was not ready to be a great partner to someone, because I think the first time you really give yourself to something really commit yourself to not just your own happiness and your own needs. It’s not about seeing someone else, truly seeing someone else and understanding who they are and understanding what their needs are and supporting them and happiness.

Lewis: Is a great relationship when you stop thinking about your needs? Not expecting return and hopefully the other person is saying the same thing about you? 

Matthew: Well yes or no. There are a lot of people who on that idea that [?] have live a very masochistic life for a long time.

Lewis: Really?

Matthew: By the way what you just described could describe one or two things one beautiful one terrible. What you just described could either be an extraordinary relationship with 2 givers or it could describe unrequired love. It could describe the person who is giving to someone and playing the martyr in their own relationship.

Lewis: The best partner.

Matthew: Many people have cause tremendous suffering to themselves and wasted a lot of good years.

Lewis: So it is both to yourself and make sure you’re asking for what you need but also giving?

Matthew: It’s a combination of respecting what your core needs are. What do I need? Like when it really comes down to it what’s my standard for what I need? Now, how exactly does someone meet that standard? That’s where the messiness of relationship comes in because you say ‘I want to be respected’ and then someone does something and you go ‘I don’t feel respected’ but that doesn’t mean a lack of respect. So, now we have a whole conversation on the execution of a standard and different definitions of what meets that standard. That’s where confusion comes in and that’s where we have to have some really loving cooperative conversations to figure out ‘am I being reasonable and asking for or is this my insecurities?’

Lewis: Wow.

Matthew: Which one is talking? And sometimes we are so close we don’t even know. By the way I see one of the most valuable jobs I can do for people in my work is not to be smarter voice than they are, because people can be great when it comes to their friends or the people around them they can be very smart. But to be an objective voice outside of their drunken haze because we are so close to something, we’re not sober and now we don’t have logical answers to questions because we get to the point we are arguing something. 

Lewis: So how do we step out of that emotional feeling where we are feeling overwhelmed or disrespected or hurt? How do you step out and look at it from a different point of view?

Matthew: I think we have to have a really healthy combination of always questioning ourselves and saying where is this coming from for me? And what really hurt me to compromise on this standard. Would it be the more loving thing to do to understand this about my partner? But in order to, that needs to be combined with simultaneous respect for ourselves and what we need and I think to go to a situation and say: 

“Okay, I want to be the most understanding and compassionate loving partner I can be who doesn’t limit my partner, but I also need to recognize that I need to be the person that is understanding of the needs of my partner and what they want. But at the same time I need to be understanding of my partner’s needs and the context of me being super compassionate and understanding needs to be this is happening in a loving environment where my partner wants to be my teammate.”

If we’re in a situation where our partner isn’t showing empathy for us and like if you feel they are not trying to then we’re always going to that side.

Lewis: That’s tough.

Matthew: You need to feel you have a teammate and a lot of people feel like they are constantly being understanding but they don’t have a teammate on the other side. I’m constantly trying to grow and understand your position, but I don’t feel the same from your side. 

Lewis: How do you have a conversation so that it switches or becomes more of an equal partnership in teammate?

Matthew: I think you need to communicate a lot about what the spirit of the relationship.

Lewis: Not keeping score?

Matthew: Yeah. Pride is a very hard thing to give up in a relationship because we become competitive often very quickly when we feel threatened, when we feel vulnerable. Now, how do I score points? Once you get into that cycle it’s like it spirals, one person has to be prepared to break that cycle. I do believe that we have to love that way we want to be love and we have to constantly educate our partner on what it is to love.

Lewis: Right.

Matthew: Not a game playing response, like if you see a partner you’re in the early stages of your relationship and you feel your partner was really flirting with someone over there, having a conversation that made you feel uncomfortable but from place of that made me feel uncomfortable.

Bringing an energy to that in a relationship most people aren’t use to that in a relationship, we’re not use to that standard of communication we’re used to doing something and then someone attacks us.

Lewis: Reacting.

Matthew: Exactly. So, I think we are constantly educating.

Lewis: What’s it gonna take for us to not react to a situation where we felt hurt or our expectations wasn’t met from our partner and come from that place?

Matthew: Sometimes it’s just space like I need to take a moment to process something so that I can say ‘I can have a more evolve response.’

Lewis: It’s funny the relationship I’ve been in which is newer in the last 5 months I want to talk about something right away and address it and she doesn’t want to talk, she wants to have space so she doesn’t react.

Matthew: Here’s the thing space is easy when you get a text you don’t like or when you see something you don’t like from afar and you’re not gonna see that person for a few hours or till tomorrow. Now, you have space to go through. You know you can cycle through those and have a sense of conversations with people whose opinions you respect.

Lewis: And be like it’s not that big of a deal.

Matthew: This thing I’m feeling this and hurt and this and that. You have a couple of smart voices either it comes from in here.

Lewis: Which is hard to do.

Matthew: Very hard activity and or from one or two people whose opinions you really respect. 

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: Someone who is brave enough and smart enough to recognize, I’m concern that you’re overreacting to this reaction. I think you need to bring this energy to conversation and that is extremely valuable, what’s hard is when you get information in real time and you’re with the person and you’re in the same room and now you are [?] trying to process, you know I’m trying to be in a more positive place here.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: In real time while real time unless it’s reflects and responses. Reflect responses are often very harmful to a relationship, it’s the reflect responses are often based on instinct and instinct is very dangerous.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: We’re so often told to trust your instincts and that is just not often great advice.

Lewis: If you are not emotionally intelligent and you are not jealous all the time then having a jealous instinct isn’t necessarily the best thing.

Matthew: Some of these instincts kind of hard wired. What we’re doing nature is overcoming certain programming that we have. In a riptide you get pulled out to sea, your instinct in that moment is to tell you to swim back to shore against the current. Which is stronger you or the current?

Lewis: The current.

Matthew: And it will drown you. You will exhaust and drown before you get back. So in that moment fighting harder won’t save you thinking clearer will, and thinking more clearly means ‘I need to swim sideways.’ But then when I am out of the current then I can swim back to shore, now instinct won’t get you to do that because that requires thinking clearly, instinct will drown you quickly. In a relationship in dating instinct will get you killed. You can like your job and still be so caught up in the chemical rush of ‘this was amazing.’

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: So what you want to happen here? Invest an organic phase based on the level of investment that’s going on right? The thing I’ve said for years don’t invest on someone like them, invest on how much they invest on you. People don’t do that, people invest on instinct and my investment is proportionate to how much I like them, not how much I’m seeing there’s a mutual investment. Did I tell you about the castle?

Lewis: What castle?

Matthew: So, I was thinking about this whole idea of investment.

Lewis: Like buying a castle?

Matthew: That’s the thing you can’t buy a castle for a relationship, to me the relationship is the castle. There’s always someone that puts their hands up and starts the story with that I have incredible connection with that guy.

Lewis: So they are already in a relationship or just dating?

Matthew: Or not. Now, I know we have a problem when someone is justifying whatever they’re about to say next with what an incredible connection they have with someone. An incredible connection is someone like you meet someone you connect and you have a great plot of land. This plot of land can be great because it’s in the middle of the forest or in the cliffs overlooking the ocean. It’s a beautiful place to build.

Lewis: That’s the connection?

Matthew: That’s the connection but it’s still just a plot of land right? I see it what it is potential. Now, what you need is builders two people who are gonna build something here and that requires 2 people to show up each day and lay brick after brick and slowly but surely create a castle. Most people have the experienced of someone who joins that plot and they both look at it, and they get really excited. Now one of them might be willing to build one of them might be a builder, the other one might just be like the potential of this plot of land. And then you have someone who is there building every day.

Lewis: Wow.

Matthew: And then 3 weeks later he calls and says ‘thinking of you.’ That’s a builder who started building then left the building site for 3 weeks and called in from home, meanwhile she’s over there building the castle on her own. You can’t build on your own and the problem we have right now is there are too many people who value the connections of the castle. If you don’t have a true builder who overtime is gonna build.

A relationship is a castle this is why love at first sight is bullshit to me.

Lewis: Doesn’t work.

Matthew: I can’t whatever.

Lewis: It takes time.

Matthew: There’s some connection there that’s based on [?]. This is only part of the equation a castle becomes a castle because 2 people work on it and in comes unique or ornate and there’s a secret passage only the two of you know. A 20 year relationship or marriage is special is because 2 people have to go through shit together and done things together. This isn’t fantasy, this isn’t building a castle on the sky the idea of love.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: One day I’m making a wager one day you’ll be where you want to be. One day wager is the most dangerous wager you probably can make in your life. The real shit is what is going on right now. People say when it’s great it’s great.

Lewis: Amazing yeah.

Matthew: When we go on some amazing dates or we did that vacation we have the best time. Anyone can go to Disneyworld and have a great time. It’s the job of the place to give you a great time no matter who you are with.

Lewis: Right.

Matthew: You know what when I was 13 my parents took me to America for the first time, and we came to Florida and we went to Disneyland and I was massively excited. I was excited to be in America, I was excited to see the things I see on TV. We go into Disneyworld and I learned something very interesting about myself there, this is gonna sound profound after going to Disneyworld.

Lewis: At 13 yeah.

Matthew: I realized something about myself because there’s Mickey there and all these dazzling attractions, but there was something that stood out for me even more than Space Mountain. It was the trash cans.

Lewis: Oh yeah.

Matthew: On some level that maybe I couldn’t fully articulate that age I saw the trash cans and I was moved by it, I said ‘someone cared enough about this place to theme the trash cans.’ The trash can in tomorrow land is a futuristic trash can. The trash can in Indiana Jones land is somewhat picky and bamboo trash cans.

Lewis: It’s amazing.

Matthew: Someone cared so much about the detail of that world that they styled and themed the trash cans and it moved me, I never forgotten that.

Lewis: Wow.

Matthew: The trash cans in life and I’ve thought about that endlessly in my business. When I do retreat I just got back from my retreat and someone came to me at the end of the retreat because of the little details we put on the retreat.

Lewis: Experience.

Matthew: It’s an immersive world it’s like, we like to think we’ve created the immersive theater of the self-development world and someone came up to me at the end of this retreat and said ‘you achieved trash can status.’

Lewis: That’s big.

Matthew: The 13 year old in me want to cry and it moved me again and I thought that’s what I want and I thought about this even today as I was coming here and I was like “You know what this absolutely applies to relationships too.” Often in a breakup when people are going through difficult times with their partner or whatever the thing they go back to is ‘we had that amazing trip.’ Relationships are about the trash cans man. 

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: What will define your relationship is the trash cans not space mountain.

Lewis: The messy moments.

Matthew: The micro attractions. The moment where we do something sweet where we think of our partner and worry about the day they had or support them. It’s the detail and what’s gonna determine how great your life is and my concern and we’ve all been there, my concern is the number of people out there who are staying in the wrong thing because of the space mountain of the relationship.

Lewis: A few moments that were magical.

Matthew: Or they were spending time grieving the loss of the wrong thing because all they remember is the space mountain.

Lewis: Interesting.

Matthew: They don’t think how shitty the trash cans were and the trash cans that’s the day to day. This is the difference between being in love and being happy.

Lewis: What is the difference between love and happiness? 

Matthew: You can be really be in love and unhappy. We think that love is this thing it’s rational and like I’m gonna be in love with this person who brings me joy, not true. And we need to start worrying more about happiness because if someone isn’t building with you, if someone isn’t committed to building the castle with you that’s the quality of your life not how in love you are.

Lewis: Yeah. You might love certain things about them, you might love the date you went on.

Matthew: How whatever. It doesn’t mean that you’re happy day to day there’s a big difference.

Lewis: When do you know you’re ready for a committed intimate relationship? When do you know you are ready for it as opposed to you just feel alone and you want someone in your life?

Matthew: I guess when you are ready to build. When it’s not you’re going there because of the fantasy of all is exciting to you, but when you are actually ready to build. The castle analogy is cool because when we were talking earlier about this idea of giving without expectation. You do expect something in a relationship, we do expect things; we expect respect as loyalty define to whatever loyalty means to us. So, it’s not just a relationship where we just give without expectation, but that to me is where the building thing is really interesting to me because you want to work damn hard as a builder in your relationship. Be what someone else is building too.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: I’m gonna work hard to build this thing and I’m gonna build it a really high standard. This is my standard I’m going to build to a really high standard. 48:56

Lewis: What if the person you build isn’t building to your standard? 

Matthew: That’s a conversation.

Lewis: When do you start to say ‘well, it’s okay they do half the job I do.’

Matthew: It’s their job to do job fast when you need them to do well or is it one that can be done [?]. There are certain things we let go in a relationship, there are certain things I am okay with you not doing as well as I once thought needed someone to do them.

Lewis: It’s not.

Matthew: It’s not that important. We’ve all seen things that once was important to us and we let them go. I was at an age where I thought that was really important and it’s no longer as important or as significant as I made it, and there are things that never stop being important or they become more important. The ability to communicate well. I think as you get older those things become more important. The ability for someone to have genuine empathy. The ability for someone in an argument to not jump saying spiteful thing that’s hard to forget. 

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: When you are younger you just say shit because you’re hurt and then you realized 3 months later they still remember that comment even though they said they forgot it.

Lewis: They hold on to it.

Matthew: Certain things as we get older these are the important stuff.

Lewis: What do you think are the 3 or 5 components to a foundation of a relationship that has the potential to really thrive long term? It needs to have these 3 or 5 things otherwise it’s gonna be really challenging to sustain this type of love and joy and happiness.

Matthew: A couple of simple ones I guess are show up for my partner in ways that they need me to not just ways that are comfortable to me. In other words pay attention to what your partner actually needs, because it’s really easy to say ‘I’m gonna bring them lunch every day.’

Lewis: They don’t care.

Matthew: What would mean the most to them is them getting home and you really being interested in their day.

Lewis: Do you think love languages is an important part of this? 

Matthew: I think that is an interesting framework and it’s been for a lot of people a very successful framework. I think any framework that just allows you to kind of create a structure for things that gives simplicity around it can be valuable you know?

Lewis: Sure.

Matthew: It doesn’t mean it’s the only framework that you can apply but it’s a valuable model to work from.

Lewis: So showing up in ways.

Matthew: Yeah not what I do not want to give but what they actually need.

Lewis: I think that’s a lot of conflict in relationships and I think you need to understand do every day that is not foreign to me or that’s foreign to me or do I find a partner that enjoys the things I like to give.

Matthew: That’s an interesting question. Relationship can be both but sometimes even without like that’s a compatibility issue, I think it even works outside of that in day to day stuff because you might say ‘the thing I want to give to my partner is an awesome night together’ but maybe what they need is an awesome night with their friends. Recognizing not what is easy for me to give but what might be less comfortable for me to give, but it’s actually what would mean the world to them. And I think if you really want to make yourself irreplaceable to someone it’s recognizing that because no one else is gonna do that for them.

The second thing is to work on yourself and to say ‘I’m responsible for me my partner isn’t responsible for me.’ That to me is very important.

Lewis: What’s the first thing people should do to work on themselves?

Matthew: If I had 10 hours free right now what would I do with them? If you have a good answer to that question you might be already describing the weaknesses of your relationship. 

Lewis: Binge watching a series is not the best use of your time.

Matthew: If the answer is ‘I have my purpose’ doesn’t even need to be some grand purpose, not everyone [?] their life calling. You should be able to answer the question of my partner can [?] today, what would I do with that day now? And if you can’t then you begin to describe the person who’s sitting there waiting for their partner to text them.

Lewis: That’s not attractive.

Matthew: It’s not and it is not fair to our partners. By the way people put a lot of pressure around their partners by expecting their partner to put a band aid on all sort of things. Vulnerability is absolutely an act of courage and we should encourage it more both sexes all the time. Vulnerability is some things making me secure and I’m gonna share it with you because you’re my partner and I love you and tell you things.

Lewis: But you don’t want to do that every day right? 

Matthew: In a way what we’re doing instead of sharing we’re dumping. I’m asking you now to fix it for me and put a band aid for me.

Lewis: Make me feel better yeah. 

Matthew: It is part of our loving partner we will support you and will do everything in their power to make you feel loved and feel safe and to make you feel secure. What we are feeling is insecurity is because our partner isn’t doing their job in those things.

Lewis: That’s true they’re not building.

Matthew: They’re not building they’re doing things that are proactively making us feel insecure and minor betrayals and minor neglects and all of that. But sometimes we have to say ‘okay, what part of this am I responsible for?’ To share the load to work toward things together, but it’s not your job to carry the load for me.

Lewis: Maybe once in a blue a moon.

Matthew: Of course we’re all gonna do that, we’re gonna have days, weeks and times where we are going through something really serious and our partner’s job is to show up. A friend of mine who is kind of blunt said to me “Some days or weeks you get to be needy and difficult and high maintenance and boring and insecure and then you don’t.” And I thought like we get to be those things for a time until we don’t, until it gets too much for somebody else because we need to be at the very least to show our partner we are committed to our own growth.

The third one to me teamwork is everything like being a genuine team is huge, really looking at each other as teammates as opposed to ‘you’re there to meet my needs or I am competing with you in some way.’

Lewis: I’ve done that before.

Matthew: We’re an actual team. One of the things I love about Chris Rock’s recent standup ‘Tambourine’ such a genius name. The whole concept is about the idea that he in his last marriage can’t play the tambourine. I thought that was a great metaphor because in a good relationship some days you play tambourine.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: Some days that person the lead and you’re your own tambourine, and a lot of people have never learned how to play tambourine. Every relationship has a flower and a gardener. Most people don’t want to be in a relationship where they are always the gardener and never the flower.

Lewis: Blooming all the time.

Matthew: And sometimes you have to be the gardener no matter how long you’ve played the flower. You and I have played flowers a lot in our lives and then you go to a relationship and the relationship doesn’t give a fuck.

Lewis: About you.

Matthew: I don’t care you’re the flower out there in the world sometimes in a relationship you have to be the gardener, sometimes you have to play the tambourine even if to everyone else you are the constant flower. You might be in your business in some ways but not you are coming as 2 equals and it is so much for checking your own damn ego and being like ‘I’m with you in this to be a teammate.’

Lewis: When do you know you found your match for life or your potential match for life? Is it when you see these 3 things after a period of time and you feel convince that the bricks are being laid equally in a certain way?

Matthew: I think there are 4 stages to a relationship. Stage 1 is admiration that’s when you don’t have a relationship for this person.

Lewis: Admire like?

Matthew: I look at you as a person and this person’s heart, I like their qualities and by the way that doesn’t even mean a good potential for you that just means this is a potential person for you someday.

Lewis: You admire them.

Matthew: The second stage is connection. I think in a sense connection and chemistry are both relevant to this stage because you have this person where you have a mutual like. 

Lewis: Beliefs.

Matthew: That can be found on a great day doesn’t really mean much still. None of these mean you can have a great relationship.

Lewis: Okay.

Matthew: The 3rd stage is commitment that says ‘I want to do this with you, I am committed to building with you and you are committed to building with me.’ That’s a really great stage to be at. You can’t have a relationship without that. Any relationship without that or that’s one sided is unrequired love by definition, and there are a ton of people out there right.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: Why they keep stuck in a casual phases and it never gets into a relationship. One of the things that fascinates me is how long do we stay something that’s just casual that isn’t a real relationship on the hope that it will change. 

Lewis: it’s a nice time to [?].

Matthew: That’s stage 3. Stage 4 is compatibility and the hard thing I think for a lot of people is, I used to question this one myself like if the idea that love conquers all.

Lewis: It does not.

Matthew: What is more powerful in the world than love? You can have love without commitment and you can commitment without compatibility. Issues with compatibility can be overcome as long as two people truly committed to each other. I think it goes beyond commitment. If they are truly lost you have to have two people that comparable. 

Lewis: They admire each other they have chemistry.

Matthew: But one person’s sex drive is here and the other one is here.

Lewis: Not compatible.

Matthew: One person wants to spend 5 days a week together and the other person is happy with one night a week together. These are serious issues that often end relationships. So to me how do you know when you find your match? 4 stages.

Lewis: All 4.

Matthew: I admire this person, we have connection and chemistry, we have genuine and mutual commitment, and we’re compatible.

Lewis: How do you know if you are fully compatible or somewhat compatible? And is there a spectrum of what is possible?

Matthew: I mean I wrestled with that for years myself. Can we overcome this compatibility here? Is it one of my deal breakers? Is it really important to me? Does the other person understand the sacrifice I am making in letting up there? Do they see me for that compromise that I am making? That’s the way I am so that’s the way you should be. To me again part of growing up is realizing I wasn’t always right. I’ve looked at ways that I’ve been in a relationship in my past where I did something and I just thought I was in the right and took for granted what someone else was doing for me.

Lewis: Right.

Matthew: And just completely took that for granted and I think you know talking 4 years ago what’s the biggest thing in my life? Being humbled.

Lewis: How so?

Matthew: In so many ways.

Lewis: Thinking you had it figured out in one way but realized there was something to grow still?

Matthew: Thinking you wouldn’t experience this kind of pain or worry or anxiety or fear and then turns out that I can feel that too. 

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: The ways that you realize that you are more vulnerable that you thought, the mistakes that you thought you’d never make you make. Things that were going well for you a long time and then all of a sudden didn’t go as well and thought they were just gonna go well. To me as you get older hopefully you, you know Socrates said the mark of an educated man is someone who has awareness of how little they know. Every year I realized the little I know and there’s more and more and that has just made be better, made me more forgiving and empathetic. It made me a better coach and speaker not to be so sure about myself about everything all the time.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: I think it is a good thing.

Lewis: Humility is a good thing we all need it at times.

I’m curious for all the women who come to your retreat who are suffering and deeply want this love and connection and compatibility and commitment, they want all these things and they feel like they’ve been struggling for years. What’s the first step they can take to start getting out of the weeds of like failure after failure and start seeing some progress?

Matthew: Firstly as a guy called John Kay who wrote book called ‘Obliquity’ and the whole idea of the book was obliquity is when you reach goals indirect means. If your goal is to make money instead of focusing on making money focus on all the things that provide value to people because the making money part will be the byproduct. If you focus on ‘I need to get rich’ you’re probably not gonna do the things that are gonna get you rich.

Lewis: Right.

Matthew: The products that you create for no reason then you just think that they are great or you think they have value or the service that you provide people it’s not. What’s the quickest way for me to make money? Most people like that don’t get rich.

Lewis: Right.

Matthew: In a relationship there’s all these things that builds a relationship that don’t feel like they have anything to do with a relationship. Like who would say knowing what you would do the next 10 hours of your life if it was free is actually gonna be a huge [?] in the health of your relationship. 72:55

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: We’re talking about you being independently attractive purpose driven independent person who is just attractive just to watch from afar because of the life you lead. By the way even that lead to a better sex.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: This is a person this isn’t just an extension of me this is a person. So indirect things that contribute and now let’s take that to the single place. What do I do next? Understand and study and this is a big part of what I do in my work. Study the things that contribute to getting you in a relationship that often have nothing to do with getting a relationship.

You have more single friends or more fun friends or more charismatic friends that are knocking on your door. That person is gonna be great for your love life.

Lewis: Makes you more desirable and have more value.

Matthew: And makes you leave the house instead of staying in every weekend. So, there’s all these factors the reason I’m saying that is because there are direct factors but my programs in my company which by the way get to go to [?]. The program I have there are very direct things like how to flirt, how to do this and that. I encourage people to do all those indirect things and then someone can’t say ‘I’m just sick of going out.’ If someone said that you can never find the love of your life that’s off the table, would you really stop meeting people? Being flirtatious is a part of who we are sometimes.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: Stop doing hobbies and stop getting out there all the things that you have to get rid of to say that I’m done with relationships are things that would absolutely erode your life, even if you take the relationship out of the equation.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: So, I think people have to, I understand terrific level of dating burnout right now and if you’re out there feeling like that right now I urge you to think about this differently and to say ‘I don’t have to constantly have that in my mind.’ That game gets boring. And now when you’re on a date and it doesn’t go anywhere you’re a failure.

Lewis: Exhausted yeah.

Matthew: This isn’t dating its life, its meeting people and experiencing a great conversation. All of those things are important you don’t have to call it dating, just go live.

Lewis: It’s kind of the analogy you said about running a business. 

Matthew: I need to make money focus on things that make the short term economics work and those things are generally not good for a business.

Lewis: That’s it.

Matthew: Same in love.

Lewis: I want to ask you a couple of final questions. Typically I ask the 3 truths questions which is what are your 3 truths, but I’m gonna ask you a different on this. Imagine it’s your last day and you’ve been in a committed, compatible relationship with the woman of your dreams for the last 30 or 40 years and you’ve been a part of this journey and experience where you built this incredible castle. It’s your last and you’re not gonna be on this world anymore and your partner has a few more years to live. She’s gonna live a little longer than you and you get to write 3 things to your partner about the 3 things you love about her.

Matthew: Right.

Lewis: The most joy the most incredible life from this relationship that you built together. What would you say or write to her are the 3 things you love the most about this woman?

Matthew: That would be specific to a relationship to a specific person?

Lewis: To that person. Imagine the relationship everything you could ever dream of. What would you say are the 3 things?

Matthew: That you made feel safe enough to be the best I could possibly be. Your love made me feel so secure, it gave me such a platform to go and make an impact in the world on. I felt so secure in the relationship that this relationship gave me the energy to go out there and do amazing things with that energy.

So, I made a bigger impact in the world because of the energy that your love gave me.

Lewis: I get chills already.

Matthew: To go from there.

Lewis: So safety, security?

Matthew: That you made me feel like I wasn’t alone in the world and I don’t just mean because we had each other, you can feel very lonely in a relationship especially if you don’t feel seen, but you find someone who sees you, who really gets you and all of a sudden you don’t feel alone in the world. 

There’s a certain existential loneliness that many people feel in life that for moments or time evaporates when you feel a true connection with someone and you see each other. That to me is transcendent. So, you’re ability to see me made me feel less alone in the world.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: And I guess you were a role model for me through observing you and seeing the way you live and seeing the way you approach things that there were so many times where I notice you were better than me and that taught me how to be better. It taught me how I grew because I saw the way you were.

Lewis: Wow.

Matthew: And that showed me no matter where I thought I was being around you showed me how wonderful people can be and that made me want to be more wonderful. I guess that would be 3.

Lewis: What’s the letter you would write to yourself? One piece of advice looking back at what you say to yourself on how to become the best partner to create that magical relationship?

Matthew: One thing I would say looking at myself saying here’s a guide.

Lewis: Here’s what you need to do to become that partner with that other person.

Matthew: I think I always love the idea of question everything. That thing that you take for granted that you are right about you know to question everything because it is just amazing to me the things that I look back at now and I no longer agree with the 23 version of me thought and 25 version of me thought.

I think understanding that we’re not very good at thinking about all the ways we might be wrong today, but we’re really good at knowing the ways we were before. A lot of self-improvement people they struggle and very good at telling stories of how they fucked up.

Lewis: But now you’re still doing.

Matthew: But not many people are good at talking about today.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: And I think that’s kind of blind spot we almost have in life people in general. I think if we can apply that thing of ‘oh yeah I was so wrong about that 5 years ago.’ We should apply that to the next 5 years too and the next 10 years and say ‘there’s a lot of shit I’m looking back right now.’ That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t trust ourselves on anything you know.

Lewis: Sure.

Matthew: It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be passionate about what we think now but it does mean we should leave it for questioning, and to that end I think I would tell myself to be kinder to myself for the course of my life and things that mistakes that I made in relationships. I have definitely been the person and even today have to wrestle with doing something that I know.

I wish I didn’t say that and then really beating myself up for it you know not letting it go, even after you finish the argument.

Lewis: Holding to it.

Matthew: Continuing to berate yourself for it and the shame is that it lacks humanity and makes us forget that we’re human and that we don’t get everything right, and the only way we’re gonna get more right is by making certain mistakes.

Lewis: That’s true.

Matthew: It also stops us from being effective because that energy that we’re putting into berating ourselves is actually stopping us from doing the very things that would move everything forward from that mistake. It doesn’t make relationships better, mistakes actually make relationships better very often.

Lewis: Because you learn.

Matthew: Those things they really can transform mistakes relationships but not if you sit there consistently dwelling on them. They make relationships better if you can improve from them and move on and be the thing you want to be now.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: To not obsess over the things I said or done differently. To that end halfway through this interview I kept losing my train of thought and probably you’re gonna edit that out to be kind to me.

Lewis: Don’t beat yourself up over it.

Matthew: I lost my train of thought 3 or 4 times and I don’t know what happened. I couldn’t think of the things I can say next.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: And that’s a real relationship.

Lewis: The highlight reel.

Matthew: It’s like if we want to change our world forget their world for a moment, but changing our world let’s bring in the real because that genuinely changes things. You know what makes you more attractive on a date? Be more real. Tell a real fucking story on the date.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: Selfish level bullshit is on 2D on Instagram, real attractions from relationships come from real stories real experiences. 

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: That’s more inspiring than the guy who sits there and does great for an hour and always knows exactly what he’s gonna say.

Lewis: Perfect person. 

Matthew: You’re great at what you do and I know I should say a lot, I hear you talk a lot about gratitude and you ask people questions about that and I have to share my gratitude for you.

I’ve been through difficult things and I’ve given you the phone call at difficult times in my life.

Lewis: Yeah.

Matthew: You’ve given me the time and sat down with me and been a voice for me that is sober and out of my own head and been truly kind. Kind and wise which is a good combination. You’ve been there for me in some difficult moments and I remember in those moments thinking going home and how grateful I am for that friendship and hoping that more people get that for themselves.

Lewis: Yeah. I appreciate it, it’s been a beautiful 4 years

Matthew: It really has.

Lewis: We got to keep building.

Matthew: I would say to anyone out there watching because I’d love to give you a way to kind of continue the journey if I’m resonating with you. There is a wonderful video, I do my retreats twice a year and [?], 6 days to transform your life please apply. I created a home version of this for people who aren’t able to come to the live event and you can obviously do that program and I would encourage you to do it. But what I’ve done is take a training piece from that and I’m giving it away as a gift and that’s I literally bring a woman on stage beautiful gorgeous girl Alexandra, I bring her on stage and we really transform her perspective and her confidence.

Lewis: Where can we get that?

Matthew: That’s just go there and put your email and watch it immediately. It’s very powerful.

Lewis: And subscribe to you on YouTube because I watch your videos and I’m not a girl, they’re for women but I learn so much as a man being in a relationship when I was single I would watch them and learning so much but it doesn’t matter who you are I look forward to every single [?].

Matthew: Thank you man.

Lewis: Final question before I ask you I got to acknowledge you man for constantly being a powerful voice in the world for so many women who are suffering. Mostly work with women and there’s a lot of women I think who are just suffering because they don’t know how to get out of their own way and you help them gain the confidence by focusing on their life and taking responsibility for life and giving them strategies and tools to really attract love. I think at the end of the day we all want that connection and that intimacy and that love and you’re providing a safe environment for women to cultivate that within themselves and truly love themselves first so they can attract a partner that they want. So, I acknowledge you man it’s amazing you’ve been committed to decade plus now and you haven’t slowed down.

Matthew: Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that.

Lewis: You’re not perfect?

Matthew: Life’s hard and I’m working on it.

Lewis: What’s your definition of a great relationship? 

Matthew: I think it’s got to be one plus one equals 3.

Lewis: There you go.

Matthew: Thanks man appreciate you.

Lewis: There you have it my friends I hope you enjoyed this episode blows me away every time I hang out with Matthew. 

Spread the love on how to find lasting love. It’s all about finding love and the real purpose of why we’re here it’s to be loved. Spread love and receive love.

 I know some of you have been struggling with this, I am struggling with this my whole life and I don’t want you to struggle anymore I don’t want to struggle anymore and I don’t want you to struggle, so take action on this. Make sure to tag me @lewishowes and @matthewhussey over on Instagram and I’m sure he’d love to see your responses as well.

A big thank you to our sponsor zip recruiter. My listeners should download the free zip recruiter job search app today and let the power of the technology work for you. 

Our friends over on netsuite they’re offering you a free guide ‘7 key strategies to grow your profits.’ You can download this free guide over at

If you want to get around town and go on those dates more frequently and not be stuck in traffic then is the place to go.

We’ve got a new announcement for the summit of greatness speaker this week. Go to check to see who the new speaker is over on the website. 

You deserve to be love, you deserve to be fully seen and you deserve to give love and experience it at the highest level. I’m not saying it’s going to be easy, I’m not saying there’s not gonna be challenges and adversity but at the end of the day without love what are we really doing here? The core of what we want is love.

Lao Tzu said “Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.”

I hope you have the courage and the strength today to be love and receive love because I love you all so very much and as always you know what time it is, it’s time to go out there and do something great.

Music Credits:

Music Credit:

Killercats – Kaibu


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